Cross-posted from Ms.Underestimated.
When some talk about “moral equivalence” or “disproportionate force,” they miss the very essence of what is deemed a “fair fight.” For those of you who need a reminder of how it really is, I offer you this:
When I was in the Navy, I once witnessed a bar fight in downtown Olongapo (Philippines) that still haunts my dreams. The fight was between a big oafish Marine and a rather soft-spoken, medium-sized Latino sailor from my ship.
All evening the Marine had been trying to pick a fight with one of us and had finally set his sights on this diminutive shipmate of mine… figuring him for a safe target. When my friend refused to be goaded into a fight, the Marine sucker-punched him from behind on the side of the head so hard that blood instantly started to pour from this poor man’s mutilated ear.
Everyone present was horrified and was prepared to absolutely murder this Marine, but my shipmate quickly turned on him and began to single-handedly back him towards a corner with a series of stinging jabs and upper cuts that gave more than a hint to a youth spent boxing in a small gym in the Bronx.
Each punch opened a cut on the Marine’s startled face and by the time he had been backed completely into the corner he was blubbering for someone to stop the fight. He invoked his split lips and chipped teeth as reasons to stop the fight. He begged us to stop the fight because he could barely see through the river of blood that was pouring out of his split and swollen brows.
Nobody moved. Not one person.
The only sound in the bar was the sickening staccato sound of this sailor’s lightning fast fists making contact with new areas of the Marine’s head. The only sound I have heard since that was remotely similar was from the first Rocky film when Sylvester Stallone was punching sides of beef in the meat locker.
Finally the Marine’s pleading turned to screams…. a high, almost womanly shriek. And still the punches continued relentlessly.
Several people in the bar took a few tentative steps as though they wanted to try to break it up at that point, but hands reached out from the crowd and held them tight. I’m not ashamed to say that mine were two of the hands that held someone back.
You see, in between each blow the sailor had begun chanting a soft cadence: “Say [punch] you [punch] give [punch] up [punch]... say [punch] you [punch] were [punch] wrong [punch].”
He had been repeating it to the Marine almost from the start but we only became aware of it when the typical barroom cheers had died down and we began to be sickened by the sight and sound of the carnage.
This Marine stood there shrieking in the corner of the bar trying futilely to block the carefully-timed punches that were cutting his head to tatters… right down to the skull in places. But he refused to say that he gave up… or that he was wrong.
Even in the delirium of his beating he believed in his heart that someone would stop the fight before he had to admit defeat. I’m sure this strategy had served him well in the past and had allowed him to continue on his career as a barroom bully.
Finally, in a wail of agony the Marine shrieked “I give up,” and we gently backed the sailor away from him.
I’m sure you can guess why I have shared this story today.
I’m not particularly proud to have been witness to such a bloody spectacle, and the sound of that Marine’s woman-like shrieks will haunt me to my grave. But I learned something that evening that Israel had better learn for itself if it is to finally be rid of at least one of its tormentors:
This is one time an Arab aggressor must be allowed to be beaten so badly that every civilized nation will stand in horror, wanting desperately to step in and stop the carnage… but knowing that the fight will only truly be over when one side gives up and finally admits defeat.
Just as every person who had ever rescued that bully from admitting defeat helped create the cowardly brute I saw that evening in the bar, every well-intentioned power that has ever stepped in and negotiated a cease-fire for an Arab aggressor has helped create the monsters we see around us today.
President Lahoud of Lebanon, a big Hezbollah supporter and a close ally of Syria, has been shrieking non-stop to the UN Security Council for the past two days to get them to force Israel into a cease fire.
Clearly he has been reading his autographed copy of ‘Military Success for Dummies: Arab Despots’ by the late Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt. Ever since Nasser accidentally discovered the trick in ‘56, every subsequent Arab leader has stuck to his tried and true formula for military success:
Instigate a war.
Once the war is well underway and you are in the process of having your ass handed to you… get a few world powers to force your western opponent into a cease-fire.
Whatever you do, don’t surrender or submit to any terms dictated by your enemy. That would ruin everything! All you have to do is wait it out and eventually the world will become sickened at what is being done to your soldiers and civilian population… and will force a truce.
Once a truce has been called, you can resume your intransigence (which probably caused the conflict in the first place), and even declare victory as your opponent leaves the field of battle.
This tactic has never failed. Not once.
In fact it worked so well for the Egyptians in 1973, that to this day they celebrate the Yom Kippur War – a crushing defeat at the hands of Israel – as a military victory! No kidding… it’s a national holiday over there!
President Lahoud has already begun to shriek like a school girl to the UN Security Council to “Stop the violence and arrange a cease-fire, and then after that we’ll be ready to discuss all matters.”
Uh huh. Forgive me if I find that a tad hard to swallow. He allowed Hezbollah to take over his country. He allowed the regular Lebanese army to provide radar-targeting data for the Hezbollah missile that struck the Israeli destroyer. He has turned a blind eye while Iranian and Syrian weapons, advisers and money have poured into his country.
And now that his country is in ruins he wants to call it a draw.
As much as it may sicken the world to stand by and watch it happen, strong hands need to hold back the weak-hearted and let the fight continue until one side finally admits unambiguous defeat.
Here’s the original link to Bogner’s post – rather brilliant, I must say. And thanks go to this person for sharing this with me and my friends:
Ch., Lt Col Brett C. Oxman Staff Chaplain, Personnel and Budget Office of the AF Chief of Chaplains DSN 297-1485, Civ (202) 767-1485Seen at Treppenwitz (thank you, sir, for the clarity).
Disproportionate Force Isn’t Always A Bad Thing at 4thelittleguy.com linked with Disproportionate Force Isn’t Always A Bad Thing at 4thelittleguy.com
The World According To Carl linked with Admitting Defeat...
The Bullwinkle Blog linked with Read This
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10:54 pm [ Quote ]
A good lesson.
11:09 pm [ Quote ]
a’men brother. dont go picking fights and the cry for help when you get your butt kicked.
11:20 pm [ Quote ]
All that to describe a bitch fight in a Philippine girly bar. Semper fi.
11:23 pm [ Quote ]
Yah bill. a marine was taught a lesson by a squid. it actually happens more than most think. i once saw a BM3 teach a SEAL a lesson. sometimes it just has to be done because some people will never learn unless it is beaten into them.
11:24 pm [ Quote ]
Wonderful story for today.
11:34 pm [ Quote ]
It’s Hezbollah and the extreme Muslims in the Middle East who are the bullies, and not Lebanon. Trying to make out Lebanon as the bad guy in this story is a mistake too obvious to miss.
11:41 pm [ Quote ]
Wonderful story for today.
Iea, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think this is a message that the world needs to read and understand. If you’d like it to get lots of readership, please go to here http://www.realclearpolitics.com/readerarticles/?period=week
...and vote for the article titled “A Difficult Lesson” – by David Bogner.
This is a MUST read/see for everyone! This is nothing short of telling it like it is….
Thank you!
Ms. U
11:46 pm [ Quote ]
[...] Hat tip: Expose The Left. [...]
11:52 pm [ Quote ]
It’s Hezbollah and the extreme Muslims in the Middle East who are the bullies, and not Lebanon. Trying to make out Lebanon as the bad guy in this story is a mistake too obvious to miss.
Then Lebanon should be the one fighting Hezballah, but for some reason there is not a bit of resistance. Why is it that the Leb military is giving intel to the Hez instead of working with Israel againsts a common foe???
11:53 pm [ Quote ]
I can’t liken Lebanon with the hulking Marine.
11:53 pm [ Quote ]
It’s like the hooker defending the pimp that was beating her from the cop trying to shut him down.
11:54 pm [ Quote ]
Wonderful story for today.
Iea, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think this is a message that the world needs to read and understand. If you’d like it to get lots of readership, please go to here http://www.realclearpolitics.com/readerarticles/?period=week
...and vote for the article titled “A Difficult Lesson” – by David Bogner.
This is a MUST read/see for everyone! This is nothing short of telling it like it is….
Thank you!
Ms. U
You love trolling for praise, don’t you? Mirror, mirror on the wall…
12:10 am [ Quote ]
Actually we Army guys usually prevail in these sordid bar events – over both squids and jar heads LOL.
On a serious note – The Big Pharoah (Egypian blogger) gives an example of the “bully” Israel (and the world) is facing
http://www.bigpharaoh.com/
Sunday, July 30, 2006
Christian Infidels: Hezbollah shooting from between our houses
(hope giving a link is ok).
12:11 am [ Quote ]
its news when a squid beats up a marine… LOL…
12:32 am [ Quote ]
All that to describe a bitch fight in a Philippine girly bar. Semper fi.
B.M., you’re a complete asshat, and indicative of your name: You’re nothing more than a B.M. on the web.
Ms.U
12:36 am [ Quote ]
Wonderful story for today.
Iea, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think this is a message that the world needs to read and understand. If you’d like it to get lots of readership, please go to here http://www.realclearpolitics.com/readerarticles/?period=week
...and vote for the article titled “A Difficult Lesson” – by David Bogner.
This is a MUST read/see for everyone! This is nothing short of telling it like it is….
Thank you!
Ms. U
You love trolling for praise, don’t you? Mirror, mirror on the wall…
BM…go away… I’m not trolling for recognition.. I’m posting things that are important to our very survival.
Ms. U
12:45 am [ Quote ]
BM is just illustrating, “If you can’t kill the message, kill the messanger.”
1:23 am [ Quote ]
While we are talking about morals.. how do you guys feel about Bush meeting with the American Idol stars while the middle east is being bombed into oblivion?
Maybe there is something better he could be doing?
Just a thought
1:41 am [ Quote ]
While we are talking about morals.. how do you guys feel about Bush meeting with the American Idol stars while the middle east is being bombed into oblivion?
Maybe there is something better he could be doing?
Just a thought
Who cares, no matter what the President dose there is always someone out there to see fault in it. If he keeps his attention to the mid east they will cry that he is not paying attention at home. And if he is paying attention at home you all cry that he is not paying attention to the mid east. Make up your damn minds already will you!
2:52 am [ Quote ]
Who cares, no matter what the President does there is always someone out there to see fault in it. If he keeps his attention to the mid east they will cry that he is not paying attention at home. And if he is paying attention at home you all cry that he is not paying attention to the mid east. Make up your damn minds already will you!
since when does meeting with American Idols fall into either category? Not that it bothers me either way, all of his attempts at leadership have been at least as disasterous as when he’s goofing off. Maybe he can get together with the Japanese Prime Minister and Osama Bin Laden and start UN idol, where political figures from around the world compete for a record contract and IMF funds.
3:01 am [ Quote ]
Wonderful story for today.
Iea, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think this is a message that the world needs to read and understand. If you’d like it to get lots of readership, please go to here http://www.realclearpolitics.com/readerarticles/?period=week
...and vote for the article titled “A Difficult Lesson” – by David Bogner.
This is a MUST read/see for everyone! This is nothing short of telling it like it is….
Thank you!
Ms. U
You love trolling for praise, don’t you? Mirror, mirror on the wall…
BM…go away… I’m not trolling for recognition.. I’m posting things that are important to our very survival.
Ms. U
And a fight in a girly bar is essential to your survival?
3:20 am [ Quote ]
Rob and LOK isn’t that kind of petty? How can taking a few minutes or an hour to meet with visitors to the White House affect anything going on in the Middle East? Odd way of looking at things.
3:39 am [ Quote ]
While we are talking about morals.. how do you guys feel about Bush meeting with the American Idol stars while the middle east is being bombed into oblivion?
Maybe there is something better he could be doing?
Just a thought
Rob would be happier if Bush had done this:
Nov. 17 95: Lewinsky and the president have another sexual liaison during which he spoke to Rep. Sonny Callahan (R-Ala.) on the phone.
NOTE: Clinton trying to rally support for military action and in Bosnia while Monica Lewinsky was … well
April 7 96: On Easter Sunday, Lewinsky told the president that she was being transferred. He promised to bring her back to the White House after the 1996 election. Then they had a sexual rendezvous during which he spoke on the telephone with political consultant Dick Morris. They were interrupted again when Clinton aide Harold M. Ickes called out for him from the Oval Office. Clinton rushed to see Ickes, and Lewinsky left.
This is right out of Lewinsky’s mouth it is from her grand jury testimony
Yeah Rob, That was great “moral” leadership!
3:44 am [ Quote ]
The 10 finalists dropped into the Oval Office to see Bush in between his meeting with British Prime Minister Tony Blair and another photo session with top high school students
The president gave the performers a quick tour of the Oval Office and talked about his job. Bush posed for a group photo in front of his desk, and then individual photos with each finalist. He urged them to stick to their beliefs, even if their celebrity status grows.
Bush meets with ‘American Idol’ singers
5:03 am [ Quote ]
will one of you neoconservatives help me define your foreign policy better…
“Neoconservatism is nothing more noble or complex than a base belief that we have to wage as many wars as possible and kill as many people as possible until people are sufficiently fearful of the U.S. that they will comply with our mandates. It is opposed to every guiding principle of American foreign policy under both political parties, and seeks to transform the U.S. into a rogue state which operates with no moral limits or ethical constraints, and for which unrestrained war is always the preferred option. All failures can be and are explained away by the fact that we just haven’t killed enough people yet.”—GG
am i missing something else from David Bogner’s “lesson?”
6:06 am [ Quote ]
I’ll do it gern!
“Neoconservatism is alot more noble or complex than a base belief that we have to wage as many wars as possible and kill as many people as possible until people are sufficiently fearful of the U.S. that they will comply with our mandates. It is not opposed to every guiding principle of American foreign policy under both political parties, and doesn’t seek to transform the U.S. into a rogue state which operates with no moral limits or ethical constraints, or for which unrestrained war is always the preferred option. No failures can be or are explained away by the fact that we just haven’t killed enough people yet.”-K (some of this is plagiarized)
Hope that helped! Here’s more. Neo-Conservatism means spreading peaceful democracy. It stands at odds with non-peaceful democracies like the Hamas run Palestine, pseudo-democracies like Iran, and socialist/communist totalitarianism like Cuba, Venezuela, and mainland China.
It opposes violation of women’s rights with the same vigor that Republicans opposed it during the fight for suffrage in the early 1900’s. As such, it opposes fundamentalist muslims. It’s all about freedom. Not freedom to beat your wife. Freedom for everyone, wives included! We’re willing to fight to give them that right.
You should probably take less stock in the self-promoting sock puppeteer Glenn Greenwald, and look at the facts. Gern, do you support the principles of the people that the neo-conservatives agressively denounce? Think long and hard before you respond.
6:42 am [ Quote ]
“Story” is a good word to descibe this. It’s a good “story”. It was written by a “writer” and either completely made up or greatly embellished. But that’s ok, the point was made. You took a long time to make the point (Yawn due to preaching to the choir) but…you made your point.
7:26 am [ Quote ]
BTW Neo-Conservative is code for Conservative Jew.
So replace Noe-Conservative with Jew in gems quote and you see the angle these people are coming from.
7:41 am [ Quote ]
Admitting Defeat…
David Bogner writes probably one of the best articles I have read explaining the very essence of what is deemed a “fair fight” and how this applies to the situation with Israel and Hezbollah.
Tip o’ the cap to Expose The Left for the heads up!....
8:41 am [ Quote ]
Thank you again for sharing my post. It means a lot to see that it resonates with so many different kinds of people.
Ok, it didn’t really resonate with the marines… but they were probably too busy holding hands to notice.
9:01 am [ Quote ]
will one of you neoconservatives help me define your foreign policy better…
“Neoconservatism is nothing more noble or complex than a base belief that we have to wage as many wars as possible and kill as many people as possible until people are sufficiently fearful of the U.S. that they will comply with our mandates. It is opposed to every guiding principle of American foreign policy under both political parties, and seeks to transform the U.S. into a rogue state which operates with no moral limits or ethical constraints, and for which unrestrained war is always the preferred option. All failures can be and are explained away by the fact that we just haven’t killed enough people yet.”—GG
am i missing something else from David Bogner’s “lesson?”
Good you are learning that it isn’t right to rip off someones work and present as your own. Maybe if quote something with substance and isn’t filled with hyberboles you will get a reponse. I suggest you head back Kos where you buddies echo your sheep calls.
9:36 am [ Quote ]
I’ll do it gern!
“Neoconservatism is alot more noble or complex than a base belief that we have to wage as many wars as possible and kill as many people as possible until people are sufficiently fearful of the U.S. that they will comply with our mandates. It is not opposed to every guiding principle of American foreign policy under both political parties, and doesn’t seek to transform the U.S. into a rogue state which operates with no moral limits or ethical constraints, or for which unrestrained war is always the preferred option. No failures can be or are explained away by the fact that we just haven’t killed enough people yet.”-K (some of this is plagiarized)
Hope that helped! Here’s more. Neo-Conservatism means spreading peaceful democracy. It stands at odds with non-peaceful democracies like the Hamas run Palestine, pseudo-democracies like Iran, and socialist/communist totalitarianism like Cuba, Venezuela, and mainland China.
It opposes violation of women’s rights with the same vigor that Republicans opposed it during the fight for suffrage in the early 1900’s. As such, it opposes fundamentalist muslims. It’s all about freedom. Not freedom to beat your wife. Freedom for everyone, wives included! We’re willing to fight to give them that right.
You should probably take less stock in the self-promoting sock puppeteer Glenn Greenwald, and look at the facts. Gern, do you support the principles of the people that the neo-conservatives agressively denounce? Think long and hard before you respond.
I suggest you think long and hard before you post such drivel again. You don’t understand the right side of the aisle..You’re welcome to it, but learn a bit more first.
9:41 am [ Quote ]
“Story” is a good word to descibe this. It’s a good “story”. It was written by a “writer” and either completely made up or greatly embellished. But that’s ok, the point was made. You took a long time to make the point (Yawn due to preaching to the choir) but…you made your point.
AH, were you there? I sure didn’t see you. And yes, the story was cleaned up quite a bit. It wasn’t helpful to the point to share that everyone there was drunk… or that we were all hauled in by the shore patrol moments after the fight finally ended. and of course I have no proof that this fight actually changed the future behavior of the marine since I never saw him again. But please be careful before accusing someone of making something up. It is a serious charge and particularly easy to make from behind the veil of anonymity.
10:14 am [ Quote ]
I would have kicked both of their asses, just for spilling my beer!
10:17 am [ Quote ]
BTW Neo-Conservative is code for Conservative Jew.
So replace Noe-Conservative with Jew in gems quote and you see the angle these people are coming from.
Care to explain what you mean by this comment, MirCat? I don’t find it clear enough and it could be taken the wrong way, unless that’s what you meant it to do.
I was overjoyed to read this article. Finally an article not bashing Israel, so few and far between these days.
10:40 am [ Quote ]
Bill, both of them would have turned on you, given a hard stare and you would have run like the lib you are. Youre a lefty, its your nature to flee.
11:04 am [ Quote ]
Sorry if it wasn’t clear, rereading it I see how it could be taken the wrong way.
Calling someone a Neo-Conservative is a way of bashing a Conservative Jews and getting away with anti-semitic remarks.
11:08 am [ Quote ]
P.S. When I said ‘these people’ whom gem quoted I meant those that blame Jews and Israel for all the wars around the world.
11:49 am [ Quote ]
Thank you again for sharing my post. It means a lot to see that it resonates with so many different kinds of people.
Ok, it didn’t really resonate with the marines… but they were probably too busy holding hands to notice.
Moron! This story was not about a Sailor versus a Marine, it was about a bully being stopped by a smaller guy with courage and resolve. If you think Marines are sitting around holding hands, I would like you to spend three months in Basic training, another six weeks in Infantry training and then walk through the streets of Iraq for one year with Marines; but that won’t happen because you wouldn’t get that far, after one week in basic you would be wetting your pants and crying ‘momma!’
I would have kicked both of their asses, just for spilling my beer!
Yeah, BM would be sitting in the corner peeing hs pants in fear!
Regardless of the pissing and moaning by a few here, this story was not about competition between branches of the service, or the superiority of one branch over the other in a bar fight. It was a good lesson about how to deal with bullies, and the bully in the story could have been a fat sailor or a soldier with a beer gut; bullies are just bullies. Hezbollah tried to play the bully and Israel needs to jab at them them and hand them their asses until the quit trying to bully anyone.
Unfortunately, the world forces are in place right now, you can hear them in the MSM demanding a cease fire, to give Hezbollah time to retrench, resupply and keep killing Israeli’s. The world is backing the bully, because of the civilians in Lebanon killed by Israel? No! It is two things: 1. Economic interests and 2. to throw meat to the Muslims in their own countries to pacify them and keep them quiet.
12:50 pm [ Quote ]
Good post. Any cease-fire will be a win for Hezbollah. They will use that time to re-arm and redeploy. They will gather innocent Lebonese to act as human shields.
Israel needs at least another ten days of shelling this band of thugs with rockets to reduce them to rock throwing sheep herders once more.
“Say [punch] you [punch] give [punch] up [punch]... say [punch] you [punch] were [punch] wrong [punch].”
1:06 pm [ Quote ]
I would agree with that except Israel has already been in at least half a dozen “teach ‘em a lesson” fights already.
1:58 pm [ Quote ]
Who cares, no matter what the President does there is always someone out there to see fault in it. If he keeps his attention to the mid east they will cry that he is not paying attention at home. And if he is paying attention at home you all cry that he is not paying attention to the mid east. Make up your damn minds already will you!
since when does meeting with American Idols fall into either category? Not that it bothers me either way, all of his attempts at leadership have been at least as disasterous as when he’s goofing off. Maybe he can get together with the Japanese Prime Minister and Osama Bin Laden and start UN idol, where political figures from around the world compete for a record contract and IMF funds.
Congrats, you missed my whole point, keep being the best lib that you can be
2:05 pm [ Quote ]
will one of you neoconservatives help me define your foreign policy better…
“Neoconservatism is nothing more noble or complex than a base belief that we have to wage as many wars as possible and kill as many people as possible until people are sufficiently fearful of the U.S. that they will comply with our mandates. It is opposed to every guiding principle of American foreign policy under both political parties, and seeks to transform the U.S. into a rogue state which operates with no moral limits or ethical constraints, and for which unrestrained war is always the preferred option. All failures can be and are explained away by the fact that we just haven’t killed enough people yet.”—GG
am i missing something else from David Bogner’s “lesson?”
Good you are learning that it isn’t right to rip off someones work and present as your own. Maybe if quote something with substance and isn’t filled with hyberboles you will get a reponse. I suggest you head back Kos where you buddies echo your sheep calls.
still taking issue with “copying and pasting” i see. if you look, i credited the italicized paragraph to “GG.”
again, Side-Stepping Harmonica, try engaging with the substance of arguments instead of locking horns with the easy, trivial BS.
2:06 pm [ Quote ]
P.S. When I said ‘these people’ whom gem quoted I meant those that blame Jews and Israel for all the wars around the world.
i’m a Jew. explain that one.
2:24 pm [ Quote ]
Kevin says, “Neo-Conservatism means spreading peaceful democracy.”
you want to show me where the peace in the Middle East is?
“It opposes violation of women’s rights” which is why the Republicans support a womens’ right to choose, i presume?
“do you support the principles of the people that the neo-conservatives agressively denounce?”
of course i do. but that’s ALL the neo-conservatives do; DENOUNCE. they don’t stand for the freedoms they espouse. the neo-conservative movement, a movement the the conservative godfathers Fukuyama & Buckley have now abandoned, is nothing but spreading corporatism for Bush’s buddies. it’s not about freedom or democracy, it’s all about pillaging the Middle-East for its resources, for our “national interests.” don’t take my word for it, read their own words at the Project for a New American Century:
.http://www.newamericancentury.org/
btw, when i supported the invasion of Iraq, i was told we were defending our national security from WMDs, not protecting women’s rights or spreading democracy. i was interested in protecting my family from a nuclear attack. telling me that the neo-conservative movement is about high-falutin ideals is disingenuous at best.
3:50 pm [ Quote ]
I’ll do it gern!
“Neoconservatism is alot more noble or complex than a base belief that we have to wage as many wars as possible and kill as many people as possible until people are sufficiently fearful of the U.S. that they will comply with our mandates. It is not opposed to every guiding principle of American foreign policy under both political parties, and doesn’t seek to transform the U.S. into a rogue state which operates with no moral limits or ethical constraints, or for which unrestrained war is always the preferred option. No failures can be or are explained away by the fact that we just haven’t killed enough people yet.”-K (some of this is plagiarized)
Hope that helped! Here’s more. Neo-Conservatism means spreading peaceful democracy. It stands at odds with non-peaceful democracies like the Hamas run Palestine, pseudo-democracies like Iran, and socialist/communist totalitarianism like Cuba, Venezuela, and mainland China.
It opposes violation of women’s rights with the same vigor that Republicans opposed it during the fight for suffrage in the early 1900’s. As such, it opposes fundamentalist muslims. It’s all about freedom. Not freedom to beat your wife. Freedom for everyone, wives included! We’re willing to fight to give them that right.
You should probably take less stock in the self-promoting sock puppeteer Glenn Greenwald, and look at the facts. Gern, do you support the principles of the people that the neo-conservatives agressively denounce? Think long and hard before you respond.
I suggest you think long and hard before you post such drivel again. You don’t understand the right side of the aisle..You’re welcome to it, but learn a bit more first.
I am the right side of the aisle. I understand me well. Being on the right, there is nothing more for me to learn about it. But I can teach it, Mulligan! You have been taught, but seem unwilling to learn.
4:21 pm [ Quote ]
will one of you neoconservatives help me define your foreign policy better…
“Neoconservatism is nothing more noble or complex than a base belief that we have to wage as many wars as possible and kill as many people as possible until people are sufficiently fearful of the U.S. that they will comply with our mandates. It is opposed to every guiding principle of American foreign policy under both political parties, and seeks to transform the U.S. into a rogue state which operates with no moral limits or ethical constraints, and for which unrestrained war is always the preferred option. All failures can be and are explained away by the fact that we just haven’t killed enough people yet.”—GG
am i missing something else from David Bogner’s “lesson?”
Good you are learning that it isn’t right to rip off someones work and present as your own. Maybe if quote something with substance and isn’t filled with hyberboles you will get a reponse. I suggest you head back Kos where you buddies echo your sheep calls.
still taking issue with “copying and pasting” i see. if you look, i credited the italicized paragraph to “GG.”
again, Side-Stepping Harmonica, try engaging with the substance of arguments instead of locking horns with the easy, trivial BS.
I gave you credit for you qouting the outside source. If you read what I said, Good you are learning that it isn’t right to rip off someones work and present as your own, you would see that. Is like when a little kid crosses the the street without looking, you correct him. Then when see him look both ways before crossing you say, good I am glad that you learn that isn’t smart to cross the street with out looking.
And yes plagiarism and spamming are BS, and people need to be called out on them. I am not Neo-Conservative so I am best person to explain thier complete postion, but I funny feeling it is little more than starting as many wars as possible and killing as many people possible. It also smart not throw bombs when you want thoughtful debate, unless you are spamming troll then throwing bombs are just your thing.
5:01 pm [ Quote ]
Side-Stepping Harmonica said, “And yes plagiarism and spamming are BS, and people need to be called out on them. I am not Neo-Conservative so I am best person to explain thier complete postion, but I funny feeling it is little more than starting as many wars as possible and killing as many people possible. It also smart not throw bombs when you want thoughtful debate, unless you are spamming troll then throwing bombs are just your thing.”
i’m assuming you’re referring to our previous “debate” re: post #18. i did NOT write that posting, and know nothing about your litany of buzzwords of “spamming” and “trolling” and your hard-on for calling out “copying and pasting.”
again, my contention is your avoidance of engaging with the substance of that posting or ANY of my postings.
but now that you’ve made it clear that you support the neo-conservative agenda, yet don’t call yourself a “neo-conservative” and don’t even know what a neo-conservative is, i’m starting to see why you don’t really engage with me.
if you’re interested in understanding what you blindly follow, check out:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
5:37 pm [ Quote ]
[...] Expose the Left had a post yesterday that looked into the issue of using disproportionate force in an act of self defense. This post clarified the reasons behind the Israeli actions in response to Hezbollah better than anything else I’ve read on the topic. [...]
7:15 pm [ Quote ]
Side-Stepping Harmonica said, “And yes plagiarism and spamming are BS, and people need to be called out on them. I am not Neo-Conservative so I am best person to explain thier complete postion, but I funny feeling it is little more than starting as many wars as possible and killing as many people possible. It also smart not throw bombs when you want thoughtful debate, unless you are spamming troll then throwing bombs are just your thing.”
i’m assuming you’re referring to our previous “debate” re: post #18. i did NOT write that posting, and know nothing about your litany of buzzwords of “spamming” and “trolling” and your hard-on for calling out “copying and pasting.”
again, my contention is your avoidance of engaging with the substance of that posting or ANY of my postings.
but now that you’ve made it clear that you support the neo-conservative agenda, yet don’t call yourself a “neo-conservative” and don’t even know what a neo-conservative is, i’m starting to see why you don’t really engage with me.
if you’re interested in understanding what you blindly follow, check out:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/
Glad you know all my opinions on where I stand on all the issues? Just because I call you out for being a leftist spamming sheep dosen’t mean I am a Bushbot. There are plenty of things I don’t support the President on, and he is my opinion has been a below Par GOP President. I will be glad to see go him in 2009 and hopefully a real GOPer will be in the White House. That being said I don’t hate and think he is Hitler and should be impeached like you leftist nuts. You may think I am a side stepper, but at least I not spamming plagiarist troll.
7:17 pm [ Quote ]
I apologize for calling you gern, gem. I changed the resolution to make the letters bigger now
(*bonk myself on the head*)
Why gem, are you attacking Harmonica for not debating the substance of your statement? It was already resolved in the very next post after your original question.
“you want to show me where the peace in the Middle East is?”
The place has a bit more war coming before we get to see the peace. Give us time to help finish the job, or we’ll just have more of the same death and destruction that is so characteristic of the area.
“of course i do. but that’s ALL the neo-conservatives do; DENOUNCE. they don’t stand for the freedoms they espouse.”
Clearly, you are thinking of Democrats. Democrats do nothing but denounce this, complain about that, and promote whining ala Sheehan. Neo-conservatives take action. We shoot bad guys, instead of trying to “understand where they’re coming from”. We put our own people in harms way to help out victims of disasters like earthquakes in Pakistan, tsunamis (all weeks faster than the ‘progressive’ UN I might add). No, neo-conservatives do a lot. You just don’t seem to like what we do. In fact, almost everything we’ve NOT done can be traced back to a liberal filibuster.
It’s interesting that you believe Fukuyama a godfather of conservatism :). Buckley certainly is though! His fiscal policies rock. Unfortunately, he’s not a neo-conservative, which means he has a different position on international policy. That’s his choice. Your’s too.
“i was told we were defending our national security from WMDs, not protecting women’s rights or spreading democracy.”
So now that you know it’s about spreading democracy (to protect your children in the long run) and protecting women’s rights, are you against it and those positions?
8:03 pm [ Quote ]
Kevin, first of all, Thank You for your civility and geniune engagement with my points. it’s refreshing.
i’ll attend to your arguments in due time… i’m under a deadline, but i wanted to Thank You before i re-engage.
Harmonica and i have some personal issues to work though…;)
11:50 pm [ Quote ]
“I’m a Jew” I’ll accept that comment as much as I accept the “I have black friends” comment.
2:03 am [ Quote ]
“I’m a Jew” I’ll accept that comment as much as I accept the “I have black friends” comment.
i’ve tried very hard to refrain from name-calling on this site, but dismissing the fact that i’m a Jew because it doesn’t conform with your ignorance, is simply sad and wrong.
be a mature adult. assume i’m telling the truth and deal with the reasonable notion that criticism of the neo-conservative movement is not inherently anti-semitic, nor is criticizing the Rainbow Coalition racist.
try opening up to debate, instead of calling people names or using insinuation to shut discussion down.
shame on you.
asshole.
4:19 am [ Quote ]
Kevin,
no worries about the name.
it seems we fundamentally disagree on so much, it’ll be hard to find some common ground.
thankfully, we do agree about Buckley and his fiscal theories. of course, my challenge to you is to defend the neo-conservatives’ crazy spending and obscene deficit.
Give us time to help finish the job ... in which i must ask, What is that job exactly? What is our goal now, notwithstanding obtuse ideas of “freedom” and “democracy?” what kind of democracy are we trying to build? the parlimentary kind, capitalist or socialist democracies, maybe a theocratic democracy like in Israel, or the good dictatorships like our allies in Saudi Arabia and Egypt? ironically, the most democratic Arab nation in the Middle-East is IRAN, part of the Axis of Evil (and next on our attack queue), so i’m not really understanding our objective anymore.
i mostly agree with your characterization of the Democrats as a bunch of disorganized wimps, but i certainly wouldn’t prop up the chickenhawk Republican party as the Good Guys. they’re bankrupting the government, bungling its basic functions, like RESCUING OUR OWN in both Lebanon and New Orleans and then blaming it on Big Government, the very big government they’re in charge of and expanding at an alarming rate.
it’s a little disengenous to blame the libs for filibustering. the Republicans rule ALL BRANCHES of government, so if they can’t get anything done, it’s no one’s fault but their own. in fact, what policy has been stopped by the Democrats, aside from privatizing Social Security (which was so stupid of the conservatives, gambling with the most popular social program)? as much as i hate the Democrats, i do think they should exist, which means representing the entire Other Half of this country. i don’t want a one-pary government, do you? remember, years from now, the Democrats may rule all branches of government too… do you want the Republicans stripped of all power, not able to filibuster? do you want the Democratic President expanding his/her executive powers to eavesdrop on Americans WITHOUT a warrant? no thank you.
i’m also concerned with how cavalierly you dismissed my anger over Bush’s bait-n-switch reasoning with the invasion of Iraq. frankly, i have no interest in promoting some Grand Vision of freedom at the cost of American lives for people who don’t want it. i didn’t support that. i thought we were protecting our families from mushroom clouds and WMDs, and now that our boys & girls are on the ground, we’re being told we’re protecting Muslim womens’ rights and building infrastructure. that’s shameful. i also thought we were going after the Man responsible for 9-11, only to be told that Saddam had absolutely nothing to do with Osama bin Laden, and now that i’m deeply frustrated and disappointed, i’m demonized for not “supporting the troops” or being called “anti-semitic” for criticizing the neo-conservatives and their “noble experiments” with my kids’ lives.
enough ranting.
you’re on…
4:25 am [ Quote ]
Harmonica says, “You may think I am a side stepper, but at least I not spamming plagiarist troll.”
i have to ask… how old are you?
8:02 am [ Quote ]
“my challenge to you is to defend the neo-conservatives’ crazy spending and obscene deficit.”
I cannot. I do not support or understand it. I am much more conservative than neo-conservative though.
“What is that job exactly?...what kind of democracy are we trying to build?”
Any old kind of democracy is fine. It’s totally up to them. It’s necessary and urgent. Giving them freedom allows them to determine their own future. Some will still go bad! That means that the majority of the people in that country want to hurt us, and it is our duty to smack them at that point. Israel is doing that at this moment in Palestine.
It seems that you are advocating regime change in Egypt or Saudi Arabia? I say no, imo, because they are perfect candidates for falling to democracy on their own simply because their neighbors did, much like Lebanon. Unfortunately for Lebanon, they didn’t end militias in their country, and we see the result. Contrary to your opinion, Iran is no more a democracy than Cuba is.
Bankrupting the government? No doubt. I’d vote to replace those that wouldn’t in a heartbeat.
Rescuing our people in Lebanon? They were warned not to go there months ago. It’s hard to blame the government for them being there.
Rescuing New Orleans? That’s Louisiana’s (my state’s) fault. The federal government is not omnipotent. Let’s not blame them for things that aren’t even their job.
Chickenhawk Republicans? Well, don’t complain about the price of oil, since you are unwilling to go out and drill for some personally. Don’t complain about pollution since you don’t have a water scrubber in your backyard. Please don’t use that lame chickenhawk word. It belittles your argument.
“it’s a little disengenous to blame the libs for filibustering. the Republicans rule ALL BRANCHES of government, so if they can’t get anything done, it’s no one’s fault but their own.”
Patently untrue. 41 Democrat Senators can and do stop all legislation from passing. I have no doubt you know this to be true. It’s been happening for 5 years. And Republicans don’t yet control the judicial, but they will!
Perhaps you should make a list of things laws/plans Republicans should pass but haven’t. Then cross off the things that aren’t blocked by filibuster. I think you’ll be left with… immigration reform.
“i don’t want a one-par[t]y government, do you?”
No! I want a Republican party and a Libertarian party. Sooner, not later. I’ll abandon the Republicans when that happens, although both parties would make sense. Democrats simply don’t.
“do you want the Republicans stripped of all power, not able to filibuster?”
Yes.
“do you want the Democratic President expanding his/her executive powers to eavesdrop on Americans WITHOUT a warrant?”
I’m ok with that.
It’s cool to be angry about it, but it’s more important to deal with the situation as it is. Bush, like everyone else in the world, thought Saddam had WMDs. So he acted. Despite recent documents saying he sent them to Syria, I doubt he had any. But that is all history. should we abandon the Iraqis that we have half-rescued? I say no, let’s finish the job.
A non-terrorist supporting Iraq will help to keep your kids safe. If we leave now, Iraq will slowly become the next Somalia or Hezbollah supporter, and your kids will be in increased danger. I don’t know your kids, but hope they stay safe. A peaceful democratic Iraq will help accomplish that.
“i also thought we were going after the Man responsible for 9-11, only to be told that Saddam had absolutely nothing to do with Osama bin Laden”
You must have been reading between the lines or something. I’m amazed at how many people thought we went to war because Saddam was involved with al-quaeda, despite the fact that no connection was ever made by the white house.
If in fact you are not supportive of our troops or their mission, you should certainly be demonized. Those people are putting their lives on the line, especially for your kids. You may not agree with their “noble experiment”, but it’s an experiment that frees millions of people (in Iraq and Afghanistan so far) and attempts to end terrorist attacks on places like the World Trade Center towers, a place where your children may work someday. Remember, that happpened before we went to war. Our soldiers are doing what they can to insure it doesn’t happen to our/their children. I support them wholeheartedly in their mission. (I also send them stuff once a month at www.anysoldier.com. Check it out!)
So it’s fine if you think we are making a mistake. Vote for someone who shares your view in November. I’m going to stick with believing we are doing the right, and painful thing. A lot of people are dying now so that thousands won’t die later. I’m all for it.
10:11 am [ Quote ]
Responding to actions that I did not partake in, trying to divert attention from your own inflammatory remarks, does not help your case.
1:31 pm [ Quote ]
Responding to actions that I did not partake in, trying to divert attention from your own inflammatory remarks, does not help your case.
what “case?” that i’m a Jew and you want proof?
1:48 pm [ Quote ]
Kevin,
a very insightful and respectful post, thank you.
a few things; it seems that you’re a libertarian. we have more in common than i thought, which is why i find your support of the neo-conservatives a bit strange, but you’ve made your stance quite clear.
“It seems that you are advocating regime change in Egypt or Saudi Arabia?”
i was making an ironic point; if transforming the Middle East into a democracy was the Plan all along (which it wasn’t, and you still haven’t addressed the bait-n-switch), why are we allies with dictatorships there? and i wasn’t saying that Iran is a model of perfect democracy, but it’s far more democratic that our partners in the region.
we simply disagree with the role and responsibility of our government in regards to helping and rescuing our own. we could go on for days, i’m sure, but i am interested in your perspective coming from the great state of Louisiana. i love and miss New Orleans.
“You must have been reading between the lines or something. I’m amazed at how many people thought we went to war because Saddam was involved with al-quaeda, despite the fact that no connection was ever made by the white house.”
here’s Condi Rice in Sept. 2002:
“No one is trying to make an argument at this point that Saddam Hussein somehow had operational control of what happened on September 11, so we don’t want to push this too far, but this is a story that is unfolding, and it is getting clear, and we’re learning more. . . . But, yes, there clearly are contacts between al-Qaida and Iraq that can be documented. There clearly is testimony that some of these contacts have been important contacts and there’s a relationship here.”
was she explicit? No. did she imply and insinuate to bolster the case for war? absolutely, and i find that shameful and feel betrayed and although i understand your sentiments to “deal with situation as is,” it’s hard for me to think of sending our kids overseas to fight for abstract, ever-changing reasons, that’s all.
just because a crime happened in the past, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t seek justice.
thanks for the time and diligence you’ve put into this conversation. it’s been helpful.
1:14 am [ Quote ]
I fail to see where MirCat made a derrogatory remark about Jews, Gem. By the way, MirCat, thank you for clearing that up for me. I am also Jewish, by heritage if not belief, and again I fail to see where the anti-semitic remark was made.