Well, look at the Symbolism.

The Lifers create, while the Aborters destroy.

Rather telling, eh?

Moonbat Teacher Leads Students To Destroy Pro-Life Display…

Hat tip: Michelle Malkin Recently, the ACLU backed off supporting legislation that would have supressed the free speech of pro-lifers. I wonder if they will be coming to the aid of these students.
HIGHLAND HEIGHTS - A professor at Northern Kentucky …

Maybe Ann Coulters book is coming out
at just the right time? Godless

Two points:

1) These people should have talked together. Childish, unimaginative displays—however characterized as free speech—convey nothing useful.

2) The professors at the college are doing their students a disservice by encouraging them to engage in such behavior.

There can be no understanding on any of these issues if the opposing parties don’t sit down together to discuss—intelligently—their differences. Isn’t that what college is supposed to encourage?

Offhand, I’d say this sounds as though the college professors were making a political statement and not the students.

Issues such as abortion are not topics that should be left to authority figures. It needs to be discussed and debated in the schools, the libraries, the supermarkets and malls, and at the dinner table. The minute you characterize it in black and white terms and leave it to idealogues, people lose.

Unhinged is right.
“I did, outside of class during the break, invite students to express their freedom-of-speech rights to destroy the display if they wished to,” Jacobsen said.
Hello? This lady needs a basic refresher course in civics.

Liberals: We will kill the babies in the wothers womb then we will deface their graves! Dean Scream ARRRRHHHHHRHHHH!!

mothers*, they also seem to not be able to spell very well.

WTF, Ian we need spell check!

And on the left coast, more liberal lunacy on campus …

Yesterday, demonstrating college students at the University of California, Santa Cruz, decided to protest the violence of the Iraq War by bombarding on-campus military recruiters with rocks.

Today’s ‘Christian’ Conservative:

Save the Fetus!

Save the Vegetables!

Forget about anyone in btw. ...

lol!

fiftytwo: You said, “The minute you characterize it in black and white terms and leave it to idealogues, people lose.”

Isn’t the termination of a living being a black and white issue? If people honestly, whether you agree or not, believe that abortion is murder, how can they be faithful to their core beliefs if they debate the issue? If people, generally liberals, honestly believe that the fetus is simply a mass of tissue, much like a tumor and whether it lives or dies is solely the choice of the female bearing that tumor, how can they be true to those beliefs if they don’t react passionately and outside normal debate?

The reason abortion has so divided our country is because it is, to the two sides of the issue, a matter of black and white. On the one side we find bible believing Christians who believe all life is the gift of God and to terminate that life absent legal/moral justification is cold blooded murder. On the pro-abortion (choice) side we have people who have rejected the idea of a personal God, a Divine Creator, and they choose to decide life and death for themselves.

How can two such divergent belief systems calmly debate and compromise on, to them, such a clearly black and white issue? I am sorry but on this issue, there is no middle ground, no place for compromise, we must be on one side or the other!

I really don’t think they should allow these crosses on university grounds anyway. I would be pissed if I found out my tax dollars were being used to repair the earth where these idiotic bible-bangers stuck their crosses in the ground. If I were in that school, I would have gone over those symbols of hatred and oppression with a riding mower.

Wow LtntWolfe you contradicted yourself in the same sentence.

Can’t say it’s the first time a liberal has done so, though.

LtntWolfe, But of course you have no problem with spending tax dollars on “Piss Christ.”

11LtntWolfe

You need to get right with your maker...as sure as the sun comes up tomorrow…your last day on earth is coming…..and your riding mower wont be going with you..

LtntWolfe: You called Christians who reverence innocent lives in the womb as “idiotic bible-bangers.” That is why I told “fiftytwo,” there is no room for debate on this issue. It is a matter of Christ hating atheists like you against sincere Bible believing Christians and there is no middle ground.

God said that in the Last Days, just before His return, people like you would be calling those things He calls evil, like abortion to be good; and those things He calls good like being in favor of life, to be bad. You are living proof of the accuracy of Scriptural prophecy and the very existence of God and I sincerely pity you!

Before the end, you and most of the world will think that killing Christians is a service to society and the world!

LtntWolfe, if you hate Christians and their message of life, you’re really going to hate the book I’ll eventually be publishing. In the afterlife, a mother meets her aborted child.

If I were in that school, I would have gone over those symbols of hatred and oppression with a riding mower.

So you would have chosen to express your hatred by using your riding mower to oppress their symbolic display of free speech.

Well, at least you’re not duplicitous about it.

Amazing how liberals have a tantrum over people symbolically showing reverence to aborted babies, as if to say “How dare they!”. But when it comes to their stance on actually killing the unborn in the womb they chant, “What’s the big deal?”

Umnumzana Said:
1:11 pm

fiftytwo: You said, “The minute you characterize it in black and white terms and leave it to idealogues, people lose.”

Isn’t the termination of a living being a black and white issue?

Obviously some people think so, but the ethics become murky when dealing with extreme situations.

I note the way that you’ve put this—the termination of a living being —with interest.

I don’t think one can generalize at all about the character of people on one side or the other of this debate. Thus, it isn’t logical to assume that pro-abortion activists are automatically atheists.

Whether you believe it or not, termination of a pregnancy is a personal and in some cases devastating decision for a woman, often leaving emotional scars that last for many years. I’m sure there are exceptions, but for many women this isn’t a black and white decision.

Having said that, I’m not sure that it’s just an issue of terminating a living being. Consider these other cases:

– not feeding the poor and starving of the world – not treating those with AIDS in Africa – not lowering the speed limit on American highways to 55

In all of these cases, inaction leads to the deaths of innocents. Are these black and white issues, too?

I understand that you see this in extraordinarily clear terms, but it isn’t always so, God or no God.

And your argument is unlikely to coerce or convince anyone.

EVERYONE GO HERE

More Liberal Lunacy

Libals r baby killers. Blow up iraq, kell them motherfuc*ers, save the veges and the unborn! Ragheads ain’t got no right to live.

We had the exact same thing happen at my school, Baylor University, a few weeks ago. Not only did they destroy the site (3,500 flags to remember the number of babies aborted everyday), they placed pro-abortion signs in the same spot.

Quart-of-Larry: I will be first in line to get your book. Please keep us posted! I have written a 144,000+ word doctoral disseration on Life and Death; and if I can be of any help at all, please let Ian know and in your case and your case only, I would be pleased to offer you any assiatnce.

Fiftytwo: While I can agree there are carnal Christians in the Pro-Choice movement; no person can honestly claim to have a relationship with the Fountain of Life (Christ) and then in any shape, manner or form support abortion under any circumstances.

While the other things you mention lead to death in far too many cases; there is quite a difference between deliberately, consciously killing a living human being in the womb with lifestyle choices that can result in death; but which are, virtually without exception, never engaged in to deliberately, consciously cause death. While God would have us refrain from all these and other destructive lifestyle choices; from taking dangerous drugs or engaging in sexual intercourse otside the bonds of marriage, or driving too fast; surely these things a a far cry from the deliberate murder of an innocent living being in the womb.

Lastly, it is neither my calling or my desire to change the mind of anyone; but it appears you are saying that you do not approve of my defending my beliefs because those in the opposite camp will never agree with them. Doesn’t that border on infringement of my free speech rights?

As to my coercing someone not to murder an undelivered living fetus in the womb; if I had that power or ability, and as long as it did not involve violence of any kind, I see absolutely nothing wrong with trying to save these innocent babies!

The fool hath said in his heart there is no God…

LtntWolfe and people like you… it isn’t too late to embrace God and beg forgiveness.

If you don’t, you are in for one very BIG unpleasant surprise!

Please excuse the spelling errors in the above post #23. Sometimes I type too fast and read too fast, and unless I use my Word program and then copy and paste, I am prone to such errors!

That professor is shameless. I go to a public university and sure there are plenty of groups for which I wish none of my tuition money went to. But that’s too bad, such is the system, and if I have problem with it I wouldn’t join it in the first place. Destroying another group’s protest is just not the way to go about this.

surely these things a a far cry from the deliberate murder of an innocent living being in the womb.

Hm. Are they? Maybe, I don’t know. It’s useless to get into an argument about what God does or doesn’t want.

The best solution is for society to offer support and counseling for people faced with ethical problems. Compassion often solves problems. Condemning those seeking abortions is not the answer. One of the worst ideas out there is to tell people what God wants.

I mean—really—who are you to say what God wants?

I’m not being flip about it. Your belief system just doesn’t matter to everybody, and many, many people will disagree with you.

Even more amazing to you, perhaps: these people are probably just as good as you in the eyes of your God.

Even, maybe, those having abortions. You just can’t be that sure about it. Can you?

nice post, fiftytwo.

I’ve talked to several anti-death penalty acitivists who based their stance on their religion – they could not understand how anyone can be true Christian and support the death penalty. Um uses the same logic for abortion, and as far as I remember he is pro capital punishment. But of course who am I tell someone that their interpretation of the Bible is not the correct one.

Let me just say that even if I do go to hell (a fairy-tale), I AM TAKING MY RIDING MOWER WITH ME!

But, also, mowing the lawn doesn’t destroy it. Those crosses might even make excellent fertilizer if they were thouroughly destroyed.

fogw Said:
1:50 pm

Amazing how liberals have a tantrum over people symbolically showing reverence to aborted babies, as if to say “How dare they!”. But when it comes to their stance on actually killing the unborn in the womb they chant, “What’s the big deal?”

I’m really surprised that no one brought up the redneck that drove his truck through the exact same type of “memorial” for fallen soldiers in Iraq.

It’s the same thing. Is that guy a moonbat too?

Pro-life is pro-life.

You can’t be pro-life and pro-war and pro-death penalty at the same time.

You either want to preserve life or you don’t.

More liberal laziness. Riding indead.

[...] Update 3: Commenter “Brian” at ExposetheLeft sums it up well: Well, look at the Symbolism. [...]

No you can be pro-life and pro death penalty all at the same time Jack Anusoff.

When you advocate the death penalty its because a murderer or rapists has forfeitted their life to live in a civilized society by their evil acts, and don’t start with the life in prison is just as bad, because it is not the same thing. The ended the lives of their victims so therefore their lives should be forfeit.

In terms of being pro-life over abortion the fetus has commited no crime therefore their life should not be forfeit. I understand abortion in terms of rape, incest, and health to the mother, however, other than those main reasons the only other reason for an abortion i can see is having the child would be an inconvience. Inconvience is not a crime. Therefore the right to life has not been forfeitted.

Jack,

I also find it somewhat hypocritical when pro-life folks are also pro-death penalty. It’s simply in consistant, but it is clear that their views aren’t based on their interpretation of the Bible, but the other way around. A person views on those subject are often made in advance and the justification is made afterwards.

I personally am against abortion the same way I am against gambling, or binge (sp?) drinking. I disapprove of it, but I think people should have the right to do it – all sorts of problems will arise if we try to ban abortion altogether, not to mention that no US lawmakers in DC will pass that anyway, it’s mostly a wedge issues to bring out the conservative religious base. Just like with immigration, the Republicans are in control but the only think they’re doing is convincing their voters that it’s all the liberal’s fault that no harsh measures have been taken.

Jack Anusoff Said:

Pro-life is pro-life.

You can’t be pro-life and pro-war and pro-death penalty at the same time.

Pro-life: Protect the innocent unborn
Pro-war: Confront those who would kill innocents, including their own countrymen
Pro-death penalty: Put to death those who have killed others

Protect the innocent. Punish those who kill the innocent.

Where is the contradiction?

Oh No, The liberals are out to get you!

Has anyone ever thought that Abortion isn’t a conservative vs. liberal issue but womens’ issue?

What right is it for any man to tell a woman what she can do with her body?

I think that many women are for abortion be it conservative or liberal.

Funny thing, my sisters are against abortion but the here the rub. They are married and settled down with children, but I remember them during their reproductive years and I know that they would be totally up in arms about this crap.
I think if we took a hard look at the women that are ardent anti-abortionists we see that the vast majority of them are past their reproductive years and I’m sure a number of them had abortions in the past.
As for the men, most of them are just opportunists and if that not the case had the situation been different and they were present day Iranians they would be the people that we see on tv chanting “Death to Isreal!”.

“I did, outside of class during the break, invite students to express their freedom-of-speech rights to destroy the display if they wished to,”

That is a Stalinist perversion of the concept of free speech. David Horowitz is correct about these ignorant professors.

“What right is it for any man to tell a woman what she can do with her body?”

So, when the dictor pulls out the “products of conception” and finds a miniature penis, it is the woman’s penis(as it is “her body”), correct?

A woman’s life is almost NEVER at stake in an abortion [and such a consideration has been claused out anyway], the unborn’s life ALWAYS is.

This isn’t about “her body”. Tubal ligation and boob jobs are about a woman’s body, someone else’s life hangs in the balance when talking about aboriton.

Jack Anusoff

Ain’t you the confused LIB?? Poor Fellah..Mental gymnastics must just wear you out. Perhaps, maybe you should go back to naval gazing and, if you’re the Jack Anusoff we all know, maybe something that excites you will pop up and give you something to do….hehehe

Abortion issue is a no-win situation. People on both sides of the issue will never change their minds….so…... I might not like it, but I DO NOT want my tax $$$ to support it. My $.02 worth.

Justhink, it has already been won by the left. The death penalty is going that way too (look at the actual amount of people executed as opposed to put on death row and you will see that ratio has been decreasing). Basically, the left has just used a broomstick on the right. I don’t even see why the bible-bangers are happy with winning the 2004 election…all they got out of it is a war that will end in failure, the biggest federal budget in history, continuation of legalized abortion, and soon amnesty. The war on Christmas has also been extremely successful, as opposed to the war in Iraq, which like Bush, is a miserable failure.

I really got these conservatives on that last point. That had to hurt…because that was a direct hit.

LtntWolfe

Explain to me what, if you can, a Liberal Utopia in America would be like??...Paint for me the wonderful totally LEFTIST LIB America…What is the GREAT LIBERAL PLAN for a LIBERAL AMERICA??.....

....I know you can’t do it...All Libs can do is snivel and take potshots at those trying to keep America the great place LIBS enjoy living in…but don’t contribute to…

Well, I’m waiting…WHAT’s THE PLAN ?? Give it a shot wise ass…you’re on GO hehehe

Here is the utopia:
1. Universal Health Care
2. Defending our country here and not going after some country that was absolutely no threat to us.
3. No christianity in public. Bible-thumping would be grounds for imprisonment. Also, take God out of the pledge and our coins.
4. Tolerance festivals.
5. Abortion on demand, with ease similar to that of going to an ATM (or that RU-48 or whatever it is sold like Skittles).
6. No death penalty, and a massive reform of our prison system. Europeans think the U.K. has a high incarceration rate…our is about 5 times theirs.
7. No more electoral system.
8. Restrict presidents from saying stupid lines over & over again, such as “freedom is on the march,” “it is hard work,” “evildoers”....but allow unlimited use of “the haters of freedom”
9. Free that Mummy al-jabaar guy.

Liberal Philosophy

“Liberals share a philosophy of ‘no fault’ living, premised upon the nihilistic belief that we are helpless pawns in this life—that the forces of nature and society around us are overwhelming—that we are essentially victims. ...Since there is no grand design or purpose to the universe, since life itself is nothing more than an accident, sin and guilt are burdens we don’t have to carry. In effect, the rules governing man’s behavior can be whatever we want them to be. This vision is inconsistent with religious faith, that is why liberals work assiduously to censor religious expression and substitute the laws of the State for those of the Creator of the Universe.”—Linda Bowles

LtntWolfe:

Don’t be so sure that the “left” has won. O’Reilly may be right on this one—this may not be a liberal vs. conservative issue at all (and some of the others you cite) but a progressive vs. Constitutionalist issue. Listen to Kennedy once in a while.

And, for your information, it’s hardly “abortion on demand.” The issue, aside from privacy, is the right to proper medical care and counselling.

I’m curious what it is, exactly, that offends you and others like you about the notion that a woman is deemed capable of making an ethical choice.

Because you hardly seem intelligent enough to make it yourself.

fiftytwo: Actually, no one is good is God’s sight – no not even you. No human will ever be saved and gain Heaven by being good! There is no sliding scale which will get anyone into Heaven. Take Mother Theresa for example; no matter how much she gave to the poor in Calcutta, if she did not accept Jesus as her personal Savior sometime during her life and be born again of His Spirit; and I am not saying she didn’t, then she would be just as lost as any other sinner.

You also said: “I mean—really—who are you to say what God wants? I’m not being flip about it. Your belief system just doesn’t matter to everybody, and many, many people will disagree with you.” (1) How am I telling ‘everyone” what God wants, I am simply defending MY belief in God’s Word and exercising my free speech rights to express my opinion based on the topic at hand. (2) God’s Word is not a matter of individual interpretation and it is certainly not going to be impacted by public opinion polls. So, even if 99.99% of all the people in the world disagree with God’s Word, that will never make in any the less the Truth. It is the Truth because it is the Truth, and I should mention when we meet God there will be no debate or defending our lives, we are either in Christ or lost – period!

Zim, in reference to Capital Punishment versus Abortion: Sgt Alvin York won more medals in WW-I than any other American soldier, but he was a Bible believing Christian and at the core of his heart he was a dedicated pacifist. Despite these facts, Alvin York killed over 22 German soldiers in one battle. He was then asked by his commanding officer why he killed these soldiers, considering that Alvin made it absolutely clear he was against all killing, based on his Christian beliefs. Sgt. York said that these German soldiers were killing the soldiers in his platoon, it was turning into a massacre, and in his heart the only way to stop that killing was to kill those Germans.

The same goes for murderers, some of them are so vicious that whether they are inside or outside prison they are a threat to the lives of others. So, to keep them from killing others, sadly, some of them must suffer the ultimate penalty. So, there is absolutely no conflict between being against abortion and in favor of capital punishment. To do murder is wrong! Capital punishment is NOT to do murder as it is in the case of abortion, it is to prevent murder by people known to commit murder. The innocent human being in the womb of a woman is no threat to society and to consciously, deliberately terminate that life is to do murder, not in a legal sense, but in a moral/spiritual sense it is cold blooded murder.

Charles: If a majority of people are for adult-child sexual relations, does the number in favor make that perverse lifestyle right? Of course not! So, if most women and even most men in the world are in favor of choice and that choice kills an innocent human being, it is still to do murder and it is always wrong to do murder. Truth is never subject to the democratic process, it is never anything less than Truth even if no one believes it. At one time the entire world absolutely believed the earth was flat, did that overwhelming majority opinion change the Truth about the earth being round? Of course not! Abortion is to do murder and nothing can ever change that simple fact!

LtntWolfe: Actually, while I suspect you were being sarcastic – the list you gave is extremely close to what liberals really want for America and they will, in all probability eventually get their utopian dream. But, I pity them when they do!

Kentucky Prof Crosses A Bright Line…

We’ve heard a lot about freedom of speech and academic freedom from professors over the last couple of years as our nation has wrestled with the issue of political indoctrination in the classroom and hostility to Christian and conservative viewpoints….

Umnumzana: Like I said, useless to argue about what God wants. You certainly seem very sure of yourself.

I know you don’t care—your response demonstrates this—but many people don’t agree with you. Many people look at the world and see shades of gray everywhere. Are they all wrong? Or are we all right, somehow? I don’t think you and your belief system can speak for any of us. But that’s just my opinion.

In any case, you don’t address the anguish or dilemma of the pregnant woman who doesn’t want her baby. I don’t think your belief system is of much help to her, even if it is to you.

So—what you’re really saying is so long as you never have to make this choice for yourself, you can remain perfect. Right?

Umnumzana: How is capitol punishment not to do murder?

So, you ‘pro-choice’ folks who think that pro-life displays shouldn’t be allowed… are you against anti-war and anti-Bush displays, too? Or does the First Amendment only apply when you want it to apply?

Fiftytwo: It is asinine in the extreme for you to charge me with not caring for women involved in abortion. You don’t know me or my life and what I do to help those in need. I have been, alone at times, and most often as a member of a team, been directly involved in saving many lives throughout my career. In many of those cases I have risked my own life to do so; therefore I would caution you to be careful of making such swift judgments.

If a person has cancer and no one calls it cancer, the person will never seek a cure and they will die! On the other hand true compassion means that we will not only tell the person, we will use the word cancer in hopes of making their situation absolutely clear and save their life.

In a similar manner, abortion is murder and the person aborting their baby is a murderer, and if they are not told it is murder and don’t repent and stop they will sooner or later die a murderer and face eternal punishing for that act. So, who has true compassion and concern for that woman, the one who tells them abortion is an acceptable alternative and thus encourages them to murder their baby; or the one who calls abortion what it is so that both the baby and the mother can be saved? You would excuse the abortion and never call it murder and you would call that compassion; meanwhile the baby dies and the woman suffers guilt. I would lovingly counsel her that there are alternatives, make sure she knew abortion was murder, and by God’s Grace the baby would live and the woman will have peace in her heart that she did the right thing.

Having sincere compassion for a woman facing the question of abortion has nothing to do with the act itself! I can and do feel sincere compassion for any woman in such a situation; but how is it compassionate to allow her to kill an innocent human being to make her feel better or help her escape an unpleasant situation? That fetus in the womb is not guilty of anything and yet according to liberal philosophy we should execute that tiny human being because the woman involved is facing a serious life crisis? Let us say my boss wants to fire me and that will ruin my life in a variety of ways, do I have the right to kill them to make my situation better? No! Likewise, no woman has the right, to escape an unpleasant and difficult life, to knowingly kill an innocent human being.

There is always adoption as a choice in that situation. There is counseling and in most cases family support or the support of friends. That woman can be helped to use an unfortunate situation, mostly the result of a lifestyle choice, and turn a bitter situation around for her own good and for the good of her baby. The stories are legion of people turning terrible events in their lives into positive change. Nonetheless, how can murdering her baby help her? It makes her a murderer, responsible before God and humanity for deliberately terminating an innocent life.

rgeller: I don’t want to be rude, but apparently you cannot read. I carefully explained the difference in post #47 above. To do murder is to consciously, deliberately terminate a human life without just cause. (a) Abortion is to terminate the life of an innocent human being without just moral and spiritual cause. That is to do murder! (b) To execute a murderer in order to be sure that person does not kill other innocent human beings is to protect the lives of other human beings. If you cannot understand the difference, you are a deceived liberal and you will never understand!

LtntWolfe:

Just occurred to me ..you are some eurotrash weenie that found this site (and became a pest)...dead giveaway with the “Ltnt”...

You paint a true horror picture of a Lib Utopia. Sounds just like what is in the euro socialistic world you come from…

I smell envy on your part for having to exist in that Liberal Socialist hellhole that IS Europe today…

Professor Equates Crosses to Nazi Displays…

You actually have the audacity to compare the display of white crosses and a simple sign of “Cemetery of the Innocent” to Nazi displays? Is this what you teach your classes? Because YOU felt outrage, it justified your actions?...

Umnumzana: Sorry, but I don’t buy your twisted logic and neither do most christians around the world. With your logic you can easily argue that a person who blows up an abortion clinic and kill innocent staff members are doing murder or executing a murderer.

LtntWolfe Said:
5:36 pm

I really got these conservatives on that last point. That had to hurt…because that was a direct hit.

Just one thing to say:

If you have to praise yourself, you’ve already lost the argument.

Umnumzana Said:
8:05 pm

Fiftytwo: It is asinine in the extreme for you to charge me with not caring for women involved in abortion. You don’t know me or my life and what I do to help those in need.

Sorry, I meant that you don’t care about the belief systems of others. You see black and white—many others don’t. You seem completely unconcerned about the validity of the views of others.

Don’t get so touchy. You’re probably a wonderful person—aside from judging what others believe.

Having sincere compassion for a woman facing the question of abortion has nothing to do with the act itself! I can and do feel sincere compassion for any woman in such a situation; but how is it compassionate to allow her to kill an innocent human being to make her feel better or help her escape an unpleasant situation?

I’ll make this simple.

If you presume to decide for her, you devalue her. In your view, she isn’t important enough to make an “incorrect” decision. Were the situation reversed, I’m sure you would have a different view.

There’s a HUGE difference between helping someone regardless of their decision and helping someone depending on their decision. One doesn’t judge and is truly altruistic, and the other does and isn’t.

I understand what you’re saying, but the opposite view is equally valid. To assume that the resolution of an ethical dilemma by another is without merit is NOT and can never be compassionate.

In other words, the act and the person are not separate. In the case of an abortion, this is also literally true.

Ask yourself this:

What would you do if it was your daughter?

Your mother?

The local prostitute?

Your daughter in law?

A local girl with Downs syndrome?

These ethical dilemmas are characterized by being “right and right.” There is nothing black and white about them, and you can quote Jesus and the rest of them all day long. If you don’t respect the views of others and their decisions you are probably incapable of true compassion—particularly in the Christian sense.

fiftytwo

Without conviction,always operating in the grey zone, never taking a stand, castrated, fence riding, don’t rock the boat, everything goes, moderate, ...these describe a mental picture of someone making YOUR argument. Truely a shallow existence, but the socially lobotomized IDEAL of the leftist lib movement… Mold society, remove all values, and you have a totally dependent population that conforms to edicts from the Socialistic STATE. This is NERVANA for LEFTISTs, LIBS, PRogressives, and Commies…

OBSERVOR:

I repeat, ethical dilemmas are characterized by their nature of being “right and right.” There are shades of gray for some.

Compassion usually wins. I’m not suggesting “everything goes.” Indeed, I’m not suggesting one decision over another.

Nice try.

fiftytwo

HUH? Who you trying to kid??(convince)

Interspersing phrases like “right and right”, ” compassion”, “shades of gray” are used by the LEFT to provide ‘cover’ for their lack of moral fiber and conviction. Some refer to it as having no soul. The easiest traveled road is when you have to make NO big decisions or take any principled stands. This is the road taken by the leftists, libs, and socialists.

fiftytwo… You are making no headway with me pal…Having an uncanny ability to read thru your smokescreen…all that remains is a pathetic confused loser..

Have a nice day…

OBSERVOR:

Whether you like it or not, a person’s ethical decision is theirs and not yours.

You have two choices regarding abortion:

1) tell everyone it is wrong, period. It is murder, killing, genocide, whatever. Use whatever logic you like to justify your point of view.

2) help the person make a decision, and then support it.

There ARE “shades of gray,” no matter what you think.

Telling someone how they should decide during, say, the first few weeks of a pregnancy isn’t making a “big decision”—it is sheer, unbridled arrogance. Are you willing to make all other decisions, too?

What you’re really saying is that women can’t be trusted to make decisions.

Maybe they’re too stupid. Oh, maybe they are too “liberal.” They have no moral conviction.

You oversimplify what is NOT, for many, a simple decision.

That shows a lack of intellectual fiber and committment.

fiftytwo

You, like all Libs, are a coward with no conviction.

One last time pal,(not for you, but for the ‘driveby reader’)...Now, take for instance, YOUR words pal:

“Telling someone how they should decide during, say, the first few weeks of a pregnancy isn’t making a “big decision”—it is sheer, unbridled arrogance. Are you willing to make all other decisions, too?”

To YOU the decision on whether the ‘2 week old baby’ lives or is killed is a “day to day” decision making quandary for the mother.(Ride that fence, grey area, no convictions). In other words, you assume the mother should have no
moral conviction, about what is RIGHT when confronted with pregnancy. After all, you say, “there is no right or wrong” ..

..There should be no LIB quisseling and limp wristed hand wringing about this. NO quandary. And NO moral option. The baby is a human being, with a LIFE, with a soul, and will LIVE..

Libs like yourself have eroded, overtime, the moral conviction that killing babies is wrong. Your kind says if it “feels right” to kill your baby, then do it, it is OK (just swell). After all, “who am I to judge”. It used to be, you get pregnant you HAVE the child. But the LIBS invented their cherished idea of “that gray area”. Making it therefore,”OK”.

Hate to confuse you with the facts pal. The facts can be troubling things to a LIB. Living in your “gray world” must be awfully bleak…

Hey OBSERVOR

You blew that lib away man! Dam fine work. I don’t think he will be back. OWNED

Fiftytwo: When did I force anyone to make a decision? So, according to you even counseling them and making sure they know the moral/spiritual gravity of this decision is somehow forcing them to do something? So, I have no right to tell a child molestor what they are doing is wrong, immoral and trying to get them to make other choices for the sake of the children and the eternal fate of the molestor? Strange sense of compassion!

Liberals have sadly bought into moral relativism and situational ethics. Nothing is right and nothing wrong, there are only shades of gray! Sorry, killing an innocent human being in the womb is never gray, it is always murder. No matter how we may feel genuine compassion for what the mother must feel or the price she must pay in bringing this child to term, killing that innocent human being in her womb can never be the right choice.

OBSERVOR:

Libs like yourself have eroded, overtime, the moral conviction that killing babies is wrong. Your kind says if it “feels right” to kill your baby, then do it, it is OK (just swell).

You’re arrogant about this. Pointless.

1) You present no alternative. How’s that worked in the past?

2) Like it or not, there are “shades of gray.” Live with it. Accept that the views of others are as valid as your own.

“Moral conviction” is meaningless.

Women are perfectly capable of facing this choice and making a difficult decision.

Name-calling is, well, just stupid.

Even if you don’t accept that someone else has a different view on this, you won’t change it. The best you can do is offer compassion, support, and medical care. The woman will make the decision whether you like it or not. How’s that for a fact?

You need to argue logically. Well, you don’t need to, but it helps if you don’t want to sound like an absolute idiot.

Umnumzana Said:
10:47 am

Fiftytwo: When did I force anyone to make a decision?

Well, here it is:

No matter how we may feel genuine compassion for what the mother must feel or the price she must pay in bringing this child to term, killing that innocent human being in her womb can never be the right choice.

Who are you to make this judgment?

Compassion isn’t conditional. Your opinion is irrelevant, and like it or not, her view is just as valid as yours. Probably more so—you’re the one judging her morality.

I sense that your mind is firm as stone on this, which is too bad. It’s this kind of thinking that stereotypes those with religious convictions.

I appreciate that you always think its murder. Maybe it is. Where is the line drawn? Where does the responsibility begin?

Like it or not, your view is simplistic to the point of ignorant. Women are capable of making difficult ethical decisions. I appreciate Ann Coulter’s characterization of “the right to have sex with men they don’t want children with,” but for many it isn’t that simple.

Get educated about this, and stop reading the Bible for a change.

What’s really funny is that I’m attacked for being a “lib.”

There should be more libs like me.

LOL

LtntWolfe Said:
5:59 pm

Here is the utopia:
“1. Universal Health Care”

Comes standard with double-digit unemployment and riots in the street, such as in France.

“2. Defending our country here and not going after some country that was absolutely no threat to us.”

Yeah because Saddam certainly was a chummy pal, ordering assasinations and gassing Kurds.

“3. No christianity in public. Bible-thumping would be grounds for imprisonment. Also, take God out of the pledge and our coins.
4. Tolerance festivals.”

These two are incongruent. How can you have tolerance festivals while making it a policy not to tolerate the majority religion in the US. Once again showing the hypocricy of liberals, who only tolerate ideas that agree with them.

“5. Abortion on demand, with ease similar to that of going to an ATM (or that RU-48 or whatever it is sold like Skittles).”

And when noone bothers to pay their taxes after being told responsibility is for dorks, your state either becomes a dictatorship or collapses. Then again, eventually after liberals are done killing themselves off, your woefully ill-planned utopia will collapse.

“6. No death penalty, and a massive reform of our prison system. Europeans think the U.K. has a high incarceration rate…our is about 5 times theirs.”

What reform do you propose, and are you going to let the felons vote? Oh yeah, and btw. If you plan on incarcerating anyone who dares mention God(upwards of 80% of the populous), there goes your low incarceration rate.

“7. No more electoral system.”

Oh right, that dictatorship thing.

“8. Restrict presidents from saying stupid lines over & over again, such as “freedom is on the march,” “it is hard work,” “evildoers”....but allow unlimited use of “the haters of freedom””

Thus negating freedom of speech, do tell how you plan to strike the first amendment.

“9. Free that Mummy al-jabaar guy.”

Who cares.

If that is your utopia, feel free to move to France or China, they already have some of the elements you love. To me it sounds more like a dystopia, where corruption and suppression are a burder to all.

fiftytwo

You are so completely off base on this…even for a LIB. What you don’t understand(or are afraid to say ) is that WE as a SOCIETY make the “Ethical JudgEment”. Not the 16 year old that is being told by YOU, and your ILK, that its OK to be the murderer of your own baby.

The nasty little secret is that LIBs have (starting in the 60’s) foisted on OUR SOCIETY that child murder is OK. Then LIBS hide behind the ruse that “it is the MOTHERS decision”. What a f**king copout and LIE!! A 14,15,16, yearold even early 20’s is NO DEEP ethical thinker. ....they have been told by “Liberal Society” that it’s OK to murder babies…

Later in LIFE many of these women have come to truely resent and regret the insideuos “Leftist LIB mantra” that they bought into as younger women (and killed their baby).

Fiftytwo:

First, to judge the ACTION of abortion as wrong is perfectly viable. We have an entire legal system based upon condemning actions we feel are not morally justifiable. Sometimes the letter of the law is right and sometimes the letter of the law is wrong, but the spirit of the law is to impose morality by punishing evil.

Second, it is laughable to claim how simplistic one’s opinion is and then say they base their belief on the bible. Abortion is a failure for women and a blight to society, abortions do zilch to help women, don’t adress the societal problems behind problem pregnancies, and actually encourages personal irresponsibility.

Abortion is the antithesis to a civilized, responsible society. It has done nothing for women and nothing for society.

And yes, I do believe in the bible, but my arguments are not based on biblical precepts, but economic and empirical ones.

Abortion is the antithesis to a civilized, responsible society. It has done nothing for women and nothing for society.

You might be correct. I don’t know.

What’s clear is that legal or not, women will seek abortions. They will make these decisions, and they are just as smart, ethical, and moral as yourself in many cases. To assume otherwise is arrogant and ignorant.

I’m not sure there is a Constitutional basis for it, and I don’t know that there should be.

Your view is simplistic. It’s your way or the highway, and it completely ignores the reality of what happens to women in these situations.

Nice try.

Later in LIFE many of these women have come to truely resent and regret the insideuos “Leftist LIB mantra” that they bought into as younger women (and killed their baby).

Name-calling. How idiotic.

First of all, I’m not a liberal.

Second, these women CANNOT be generalized about and demonized. They are just like you and me, only faced with a difficult problem.

Sure, abortion can be illegal. Society can set the standard as in the past.

“How’s that working for you?”

This is a complex problem with ultimate roots in education and the economy and not in the church. It has nothing to do with sanctifying murder. Illegal abortions killed thousands of women each year.

I appreciate your opinion, but whether you accept it or not reality is quite different.

fiftytwo

Hey BUD, you are gettin’ your head handed to YOU!! Unless you got better stuff to put out, you need to “put your sh@t down, and just back away”..man, you are shot to sh@t…

Hm. Let me add:

I don’t have an idea better than legal abortion clinics. These women deserve proper counseling and medical care, but simply telling them it’s criminal is pointless.

Laws are, in a very real sense, completely arbitrary. And I’ll give you an example.

Murder is a crime, but when is it OK?

1. War
2. Self defense
3. If you’re Ted Kennedy and you’ve been drinking

This legalization of abortion has been ridden by extreme elements of the left as a triumph, but it’s really about making the best of a bad situation. No one wants to be faced with the choice, and like it or not these women will decide. That’s the simple truth.

As soon as ideology declares victory i.e., God says it’s bad! the debate is over. And the women still make the decision.

So, get realistic and be compassionate. Help the women make the best choice they can and accept that they make the best choice possible. They will, anyway.

The alternative?

Try putting these women to death for murder. Funny, but I don’t hear that mentioned.

Bubba Said:
12:08 pm

fiftytwo

Hey BUD, you are gettin’ your head handed to YOU!! Unless you got better stuff to put out, you need to “put your sh@t down, and just back away”..man, you are shot to sh@t…

Is that your idea of an intelligent comment?

And you wonder why women are angry with men, I’ll bet.

“Your view is simplistic. It’s your way or the highway, and it completely ignores the reality of what happens to women in these situations.”

So then if I am simplistic, DO tell me, in no uncertain terms, under what circumstances a woman’s wish not to remain pregnant supercedes another human being’s right to life. The unchangable reality of the situation is that a life is destroyed in an abortion, and there better be a damn good reason for destroying another human life that you created through your own actions.

My shortlist:

1. Actual physical danger
2. Extremely low fetal survival rate accompanied by medical (not fiscal) conditions that may complicate a woman’s life permanently. (eg. Cancer.)
3. Rape and Incest (to be discussed in depth at a later juncture, but allowed in as a first step in the right direction, eliminating any exceptionalist argument)

I think I’ll quote you now: “Nice try.”

Trying to dodge debate with “circumstances” doesn’t work because the circumstances can be categorized and tackled individually. Rather then having to deal with 4096 individual cases per day (more abortions occur per day then troops have been killed in Iraq in 3 years), we can generalize into a few categories, thus making a reasonable judgement a much less challenging task.

fiftytwo

Tell me. You sound like a 52 year old woman who, as a perhaps 22 year old, had an abortion. If you are guilty about it, don’t rationalize it to others. It is detrimental to other young women in that predicament. Just admit you made a huge mistake as a young woman, tell your story, and avise others not to make the same mistakes. Too many young women get conned into this abortion trap these days. Time for change. Don’t you agree??

So then if I am simplistic, DO tell me, in no uncertain terms, under what circumstances a woman’s wish not to remain pregnant supercedes another human being’s right to life.

First: I’ve never said it’s OK to abort a baby.

Second: the woman who is pregnant will make that decision, whatever your opinion is. You can make lists all day long and be as smug as you like.

What are the options?

I’m not a liberal so much as a realist. This isn’t—and never has been—a “right and wrong” issue.

Do we put these women deciding to abort their babies to death? That’s what you’re suggesting, in essence.

Seriously. Have you really thought about this any further than your own sense of morality?

You sound like a 52 year old woman who, as a perhaps 22 year old, had an abortion.

Could be worse. I could sound like you.

Women don’t get “conned” into this. Name one.

Sorry, but your view ignores reality. And I remind you I’ve never mentioned my opinion about abortion.

Are you kidding me, fiftytwo? Abortion exists mainly for the benefit of men, so that they don’t have to bother paying child support to the girl they hooked up with.

Abortion is the biggest con of all time, with irresponsible men telling women that they have “choice”, when it’s really just the men who want to use women, throw them away (figuratively), and throw their children away (literally).

Also, you ignore that just about all laws are ultimately based on morality and/or ethics. Some societies (eg, Muslim societies) don’t put a very high value on human life. So does that mean that we shouldn’t criminalize murder? Many of our laws are based on Judeo-Christian philosophy. Should we throw them all out the window, since that philosophy can’t be ‘forced’ on people who live by a different code?

Consider paying taxes, since it’s that time of the year. The law requires us to pay taxes. Why? Why can’t the law allow us to ‘choose’ not to pay taxes? Because that would be theft. And why is theft wrong? Because most moral codes forbid theft. However, maybe someone’s moral code doesn’t forbid theft. Therefore, according to your argument, we should never outlaw theft, as the choice should be ours to make whether we will be thieves or not.

Fifty-Two: You may not be a liberal but you have succumbed to moral relativity regarding abortion. I have several points to make.
1. You do not have base your opposition to legalized abortion on religious grounds. While I am a christian my opposition to abortion is secular. There are atheists who are pro-life (do an internet search).
2. Abortion is not a boost for women’s rights. Rather than create better situations for women caught in unplanned pregnancies society allows those women ‘choice’ as a way to “make the best of a bad situation.”
3. When abortion is criminalized it is usually the doctor who performs the abortion who is punished, not the woman.
4. The idea of “I think it is wrong but the decision is up to the woman” is ridiculous. Either she is aborting worthless, inconvenient fetal tissue which is not wrong at all or she is killing a human life which shouldn’t be legal.
5.”Second, these women CANNOT be generalized about and demonized. They are just like you and me, only faced with a difficult problem.” 96% of women who have had abortions felt at least some guilt about it. No one is demonizing these women just what they are doing. 98%, 98% of abortions are for reasons other than rape, incest or danger to the mother. Your “shades of gray” argument is nothing more than a groundless copout in light of that fact. You should reassess your thinking on this subject.

JWL Said:
2:25 pm

Are you kidding me, fiftytwo? Abortion exists mainly for the benefit of men,

Riiiiiiiiiiight.

RadicallyModerate:

You present some of the most intelligent comments to date, although I think your statistics are probably not accurate.

Still, we’re faced with a real dilemma as a society, and the solution doesn’t appear to be making it illegal and putting doctors in jail. I don’t know what the answer is, but I’d rather the woman receive professional counseling and medical care.

You are right—it’s tough on the woman. I think for many of them it is a devastating, life altering decision either way. Society shows little or no support for mothers of these children.

Like it or not, the woman decides, whether you think so or not. I didn’t say it was up to her. I don’t advocate leaving her alone to make that decision.

You’re ignoring the reality of this, and I’m guessing you’ve never been pregnant.

My point has been, all along, that this isn’t a “right and wrong” issue. It’s one of the basic “right and right” issues of our society. On the one hand, how we protect those most helpless says something profound about us. And, on the other hand how we treat those faced with terrible choices and no support is also important.

The fact is, making it illegal, stoning women, and putting doctors in jail doesn’t make it go away—and it just says different things about us as a society.

Women ARE qualified and capable of making these ethical decisions.

Tsk! Tsk! Madam fiftytwo,

Did I hit a sore spot with you? Hmmm??

“Women don’t get “conned” into this. Name one.”

Are you kidding me? “Planned Parenthood” is conning young women everyday. As is “National Organization for Women” (NOW). But many of us young women are getting educated to the truth. Thanks to sites like expose the left, talk radio, and the internet.

Ya gotta love it

All manner of religious viewpoints will be seen as legitimate at the “Tolerance Festival”, until someone speaks about Jesus Christ. At which time the Tolerance Enforcers will whisk the person away to prison!

Annie Said:
3:22 pm

Tsk! Tsk! Madam fiftytwo,

Did I hit a sore spot with you? Hmmm??

The sore spot is on your head.

I repeat, women are not “conned.” Name one.

Like it or not, women will make these choices. Society can abandon them or try to help them. It’s pretty easy to have all the answers, isn’t it?

The real question is, does making it illegal change minds and hearts? The problem is more complicated. People don’t choose to have sex because abortion is legal, for one. And, on the flip side, not everyone seeking an abortion is a stereotypical NOW brainwashed member.

You oversimplify this to justify a narrow, judgemental view of the choices of others. Let’s hope you aren’t faced with a similar choice.

Women are perfectly capable of making these difficult decisions, and they will anyway. What’s it to be? That’s the issue.

1) It’s murder, and any woman who aborts her baby is a murderer. Shame, shame.

– doesn’t stop it from happening and fills orphanages pretty fast.

2) It’s a difficult choice. Let’s help the person make the best choice. Maybe this person needs a hand up. Maybe having a baby isn’t the best thing. Maybe it is. Let’s consider all the people involved.

Hm.

Which one seems more compassionate and respectful? I guess it all depends on how you feel about pregnancy.

I haven’t said what my opinion is one way or the other. Betcha can’t guess.

Craig Said:
3:31 pm

Ya gotta love it

All manner of religious viewpoints will be seen as legitimate at the “Tolerance Festival”, until someone speaks about Jesus Christ. At which time the Tolerance Enforcers will whisk the person away to prison!

Huh?

I see fiftytwo simply dismisses obvious truth. Who invented abortion? Who are the loudest voices in favor of ‘choice’? Who favors late-term abortion the most? Who benefits most from abortion?

The answer to all of those questions is MEN. Men invented abortion. Abortion is legal because of the actions of men, not women. All polls always show men, especially young men, being the biggest supporters of late-term abortion. And while abortion ravages a woman’s body and leaves her with a dead child, it sets a man free from responsibility.

Fiftytwo, you seem to assume that women often prefer to kill their children. Would they make this ‘choice’ if the men who impregnated them were not deadbeats?

JWL:

“Obvious truth?” Give me a break. Men didn’t “invent” abortion.

I didn’t say anything about what women assume. You’re ignoring the fact that women choose regardless of your moral opinion. There are men who may force women to have abortions, I suppose, but women make these difficult choices.

Look, stop sounding like a total moron about this issue.

The fact is (history has shown this) that if abortion is illegal there are coat hangar abortions and illegal quacks that kill thousands of women a year, and there are overflowing orphanages.

Your mother could have had an abortion.

Your sister, your aunt, etc. These women aren’t criminals, and they aren’t stupid pawns of men who don’t want to support children. They are, for the most part, apparently more intelligent than you for starters.

Do you have any facts, at all, to support your inane ideas?

Stop sounding like an idiot.

fiftytwo y/o woman??

Hey Lady, well you had your chance and BLEW it(btw, if you just blew it there would be no problems, hehehe). YOU must be a ‘sado masochist’ ‘cause you are being SLAMMED every time you post. And with good reason. YOUR argument is totally naive and without logic. By the way, are you referred to as “old grey lady”?...Kinda like that LIB OUTlet the NYT?

Fiftytwo, grow up and learn to accept reality. Living in a dream world doesn’t help you.

JWL:

No facts?

Didn’t think so.

Bubba:

And to think, with your analytical skills you probably wonder why women have abortions.

My guess is, it’s to reduce the number of people in the world like you.

fiftytwo: You said, The fact is (history has shown this) that if abortion is illegal there are coat hangar abortions and illegal quacks that kill thousands of women a year, and there are overflowing orphanages.”

Please help me to understand your reasoning: Because women are so anxious to kill the innocent life within them, they are willing to use coat hangers or go to back alley abortionists; does that justify the legalization of abortion? If a child molester is so anxious to sexually assault an innocent child they go online to entice a child to meet them in some dark alley; or they go to Thailand to fulfill their desires, with your reasoning shouldn’t we then legalize child molestation to keep them from so much trouble or exposing themselves to legal danger?

Just because someone wants to commit an evil act and will go to any lengths to carry out their desires, surely society is just as guilty of evil as the perpetrator if it facilitates that evil act.
Then you said, “The fact is, making it illegal, ’stoning women,’ and putting doctors in jail doesn’t make it go away—and it just says different things about us as a society.” Who said these women should be stoned to stop them from getting abortions, that stoning reference is an attempt on your part to once again attack Christians and it bears no relationship whatsoever to reality. No one wants to stone or punish women, though there certainly should be a sense of shame associated with such an extreme act. Yes, doctors who participate in killing a child in the womb are criminals and they should be severely punished for that criminal act. It is like people on illegal drugs, we can sympathize with their being enslaved to these drugs and want to take steps to rescue them, but we do want and we should want to punish the drug dealers.

Lastly, in another post, you said something about getting my head out of the Bible. That is another anti-Christian attack and you might be interested to know that most of our Founding Father’s wanted the Bible taught in all American schools and even people like Jefferson recommended daily, intense Bible study for every American that they might be properly grounded in the moral/spiritual principles of that great book. It is also interesting to note that if their advice had been followed, we wouldn’t even be talking about things like abortion today, because the citizens of this land would not consider such a murderous act.

Umnumzana

Once again you make complete logical sense. I suspect your comments are for “other” readers and not specifically for “52”(a complete dolt). You know the vast many that read this site do not post. Your words, on Easter Sunday, are so timely and appreciated. Thanks Pal.

I’m a Pro-Choice kinda guy.

Don’t have unwanted pregnancies; don’t have sex. That’s your choice.

^_

Please help me to understand your reasoning: Because women are so anxious to kill the innocent life within them, they are willing to use coat hangers or go to back alley abortionists; does that justify the legalization of abortion?

That’s the reality of it. Women need support and not condemnation, because the latter changes nothing.

“Justify” is irrelevant. Laws exist for the good of society and protection of its people. The question is, are children protected when abortion is illegal?

Well, that depends on your definition of children. In any case, this is a problem that has NOT gone away no matter how many people like yourself have declared an absolute truth. Truth for people in desperate situations is not only different than yours, but likely to be just as correct.

I understand what you’re saying—and you have NO idea what my opinion is, because I haven’t given it—but the reality of what happens to women is quite, quite different.

As for anti-Christian attacks, there was no attack about it. Just stop reading the Bible for your ideas and talk to some of these women.

Duh.

It is also interesting to note that if their advice had been followed, we wouldn’t even be talking about things like abortion today, because the citizens of this land would not consider such a murderous act.

One more thing—comments like this are exactly what I’m talking about. If only we all believed what you believe…

Well, people don’t.

Many good, decent people don’t and for their own good and decent reasons.

The only way for you to really understand this is to stop judging everyone around you and listen.

“52”(a complete dolt).

Hm.

I haven’t given my opinion, really.

I’m just stating an obvious truth that is apparent in our own history. You can deny it, you can say its wrong, and you can make it illegal, but it doesn’t make the problem go away.

Making it legal doesn’t make it go away, either. I never said it did.

I assume that most of the “pro-life” people who post here aren’t interested in real solutions, some of which I’ve only hinted at.

The solution is NOT for everyone to read the Bible and just not kill their babies. That simply doesn’t work, and it never has.

I didn’t make it up—look around you and talk to some of these women. You may find it enlightening.

My guess is, not one of you will make the effort.

“52”(a complete dolt)

concur.

Casual Observor Said:
4:49 am

“52”(a complete dolt)

concur.

Still, this doesn’t change any of the facts about what these women will do. Believe what you like and live in your bubble.

By the way, name calling makes you sound like a complete idiot.

But, thanks for clarifying your position with logic and facts. That’s the hallmark of a person who is not very bright. Which, oddly enough, is the definition of “dolt.”

For all the posturing of the right on this issue, their solution simply doesn’t work. It doesn’t reduce the number of abortions and kills women.

The solution is not a moral one, I think, but I don’t know. My guess is, neither do you—precisely because yours is completely ineffective. Hence the current situation.

Nice try.

Well, I take it back. Lousy, lazy try.

Go backj to reading the Bible and pointing your fingers.

One last point before I leave this thread (which is instructive—I had no idea people were this ignorant):

Proclaiming something “wrong” usually doesn’t change people’s behavior. There are two approaches:

1) Consequences, such as jail or the death penalty that act as deterrants.

2) Alternatives that make sense to the parties involved.

Frequently, individuals aren’t concerned with the moral absolutism of others. You can get blue in the face screaming about abortion being wrong in the eyes of God, but there are millions of people who think you’re completely full of crap. And, they’re correct—probably even in the eyes of your God, for all you know.

The fact is, this situation is and always has been more complicated than “abortion is murder.” It is a true “right and right” issue, in which individuals will make their decisions regardless of consequences or alternatives.

I’ve been amazed at being called a lib, a 52-year old woman, and other things, but all that demonstrates is an unevolved, ignorant viewpoint.

Here’s a thought—listen to some of these women instead of people who think they know what is right and wrong. It may not change your mind, but at least you might understand their view.

What have you got to lose, but your sense of overbearing pride and arrogance?

fiftytwo WOW you really got your panties in a bunch don’t you. Suggest you re-read your own postings. Perhaps you will see the same “trend” an